The beginning of the end?

[Garawa]

Is this the start of the biggest collapse of a dominant force in football since......well ever? This may not have been a vintage side but Brazil still had a number of world class players in their squad and, having not lost a competitive match at home since 1975, they must have been everybody's favourites to win. Losing two games in a row is bad enough, but they have been destroyed with barely any answers.

History will state they scored 1 and conceded 10 in 2 games and that will send shock waves throughout the country. I fear they may never fully recover from this as other South American sides appear to have closed the gap. I'm not sure I have seen a side get torn apart like that and it not be San Marino or the like!

[gillsfan1066]

End of the World, end of the World the sky is falling in. Hang on there a few seconds Chicken Little, I didn't exactly see Italy, Spain, England, put up much of a fight did you and you know as well as I do that the third place game no one wants to play in even the Dutch Manager ( until they won it) said it was a farce,a waste of time they just wanted to go home ?
No Brazil were not a great team and playing at home I for one had them down to win it all, would have bet the farm on it if I had one,(thank God I didn't) but then don't I recall Manchester Utd. losing something like 7-1 to Man City last year, does that mean there finished,relegation looming for them this year ?? No of course not, it might take a year or two for them to rebuild but I bet there back in a year or two.
Once a team gets down by 3 or 4 then they have to push forward and try and score and of course they leave huge gaps at the back, but lets be honest they met Germany on one day in a million and it was incredibly good fun for the rest of the World to watch, the mighty Brazil going down the tube.
I agree they have come back to the pack ,Germany seem to be THE TEAM at the moment, but I am a lot more worried about England than Brazil, what I think we are seeing is teams with heart and teams with the" want to" factor beating the rich kids from the rest of the World who show they don't want to be there, England were a ******* disgrace, and maybe the Brazilian players are going down the same path making to much money playing club football to care about the International game ??
No team stays on top for ever, but they will be back, bet they win a World Cup before England ever do ,or perhaps I am just fooling myself and I should be putting all my money on Algeria, Columbia , or Nigeria for the 2018 W/C in Russia.??

[sotongill]

Much of it will depend on how the Brazilian FA react now to their performance during this tournament .

Don't forget , the current German team is the result of the re-structuring after they were emphatically beaten 5-1 by us a decade ago .

If the Brazilian FA react in the same way then they could be a major force again , if not by 2018 , then by 2022 in Qatar , or 2026 in whatever hell-hole wants to pump the most money FIFAs way .

[Garawa]

But then that poses a totally different question. We are told Germany had a very young squad but one that played together day in day out. Holland had the second youngest I believe and look what both sides achieved against the odds, against the more favoured sides and releatively quickly. England has a whole host of young players all breaking through in various squads but barely any seem to have any decent credentials or achieve as expected at club level and then do barely anything.

This isn't the Premier League to blame. I can think of Ramsey and Bale that would look a class apart in the England squad and, although Bale move on recently, both achieved similar to virtually all England players. Yes I know Wales didn't do anything either but I bet they would have shone had they done so!

I didn't exactly see Italy, Spain, England, put up much of a fight did you

No, but then Brazil hadn't lost a competitive game for 39 years and hadn't lost 2 in a row since the 40s so quite frankly it ranks with me as one of the biggest shocks of all time. England? Well we all expected that didn't we?!

[sotongill]

Not disputing any of that Gary .

It's just that Germany looked at what they could do from the lowest level up to ensure that they would be successful , not coming out with any Dyke style nonsense about Premier league B teams ( which clearly doesn't work - ask Spain ) .

Your comment about a young German squad . Coincidence ?

If potential and current England players can play together regularly , then that would only be for the good , but I don't think the contracts with SKY/Premier League allows any of that "country comes before club" stuff .

We sold our souls to the Murdoch clan in the early nineties , and sadly I think we'll never recover .

[Garawa]

I think you're right. Does anyone know what the TV arrangements are like in Germany? Do the clubs get more behind the national side?

I guess the trouble with using lesser players and bring them through is that they will inevitably be bought by bigger clubs purely because they are an international player and the cycle is broken. I still can't work out the Wales analogy though and coincidence has to be concluded in that. Aaron Ramsey seemed to fully support his club and be a pivotal part of the national squad. Had he been available for the entire season and qualified for the World Cup I am sure he would have played a huge number of games. Jack Wilkshere on the other hand seems to have all but vanished and this time last year he was well ahead in the pecking order at Arsenal.

Both appear to be fully supported by their clubs. Has to be coincidence otherwise it is that players do not want to play for their country. Maybe they see it as a poison chalice that will only end up in nationwide criticism and playing against the best players in the world at club level is a better option instead, something Ramsey wouldn't have to worry much about with Wales. If that is the case, we have a severe problem that could only be addressed by starting with kids aged 4 and drilling into them that this is the very best they can achieve. All the time clubs will control their development they will say otherwise.

[Rimshot]

German football is a lot more inclusive, fans reps on Boards of Directors for example and they don't have the nonsense of the FA:EPL bickering to contend with.
By contrast English football is controlled by the financial interests of half a dozen corporate brands with overseas investors and foreign managers who recognise no commitment to our national side.

No wonder it's hard to get an England team that has heart, fitness and group commitment. In players like Lallana, Barklay, Sterling, Ox, Shaw we do have skills, speed and enthusiasm but week in and week out they won't be getting any support for their international careers at their place of work.

Until this changes fundamentally our national side will always lack cohesion and motivation.

[gillsfan1066]

Watched Sir God Ferguson do a chat show here last night, he thinks in less than 10 years EVERY EPL TEAM will be owned by companies and individuals from outside the UK, and he bets 90 % of teams will be managed by non British managers, he said it would be good for the game, I cried.

[Garawa]

And then renamed the same as they controlling company no doubt! Emerates FC, Manchester Etihad FC (which just sounds like someone with a speech impediment talking about the wrong Manchester club)!!!! Why doesn't this happen abroad or are they already so heavily invested in at a local level? The only club I can think of is PSG. Madrid is owned by the royal family there aren't they? Not sure many German clubs have foreign owners yet there don't seem many English clubs owned domestically above League 1. Should Scally stay out there much longer and get dual citizenship we might suddenly find we too are foreign owned without anything happening!!!!

I flippantly asked if this was the beginning of the end of Brazil being being the great footballing nation everyone admires. The foreign ownership issue, if it went that far, WOULD be the beginning of the end of football as we appreciate it.

[gillsfan1066]

Football the way Mr. Lidbit and myself and a few others know it has already ended. Since 1992 only Blackburn Rovers (of all people) have won the title outside the Big Four, at least other teams like Ipswich ,Derby, Forrest ,Everton, Spurs and todays big 4 got an occasional shout while mighty Liverpool dominated in the 60's , 70's and 80's.
This season is still 3 or 4 weeks away, anyone betting against Manchester City or Chelsea winning the title, possibly Arsenal, anyone put a few hundred on Stoke or Southampton, Palace or Spurs, where is the fun anymore, at least in the lower divisions there is a chance someone least likely can rise to the top and make a splash in the playoffs ,not happening where only big money talks in the Premier.
r

[Elgrande]

Blackburn were the richest club in the league when they won it so no shock there either. I think the quote sold our souls to Murdoch sums it all up. Those that moan about the England team happily pay for a Sky season ticket even though they know that doing so ultimately harms the national side. It was no coincidence that the teams that did the best had very few players from the Premiere League, those that under performed had a higher number. Players play for money first and foremost in the Premiere League and international football is no longer a guarantee of a better contract. All of our top clubs have a high percentage of overseas players, but yet again we have very few world cup winners. Of the victorious Spain side there were very few who at the time were playing in England. Our players would rather be fringe players on big money than play elsewhere in the world and more to the point very few of our players are wanted abroad even if they would go.
Until we stop paying young players obscene amount of money very early in their careers and giving them long contracts we will never get hungry young players.