Kick over celebrating out of football.

[Elgrande]

Ok so the UN decides that the Romanies deserve a homeland and decide to evict eveyone from England and set up a land called Rom. The English are forced into Wales, but they are reliant on the Romanies for water and power and they have shut the bridge. The USA sends them huge amounts of aid; ignores all of their war crimes allow them to fluant UN resolutions and supply them with arms while at the same time they trickle just a little money to Wales. Do you think they would just sit back and say; Ok we used to live in Kent, but now all our villages have been taken by the Romany people as have all our houses, we don't mind. They would fight back.

[Poshgill]

Lidbid. That is a somewhat patronrising to say it is a 'throw away' comment. I am appalled that the West and in particular the US side with the Israelis. The Arabs had their land forcibly taken from them so that the Jews could have a homeland. This was to appease the guilt of the West after the last war. Because the Arabs had the temerity to complain, they are seen as the aggressors. The current situation was started by Israel shelling Hamas and thus killing innocent people and yet the Arabs are deemed as in the wrong. It is outrageous that Israel for years have played the wounded party and innocent in all this when in reality they are as bad, if not worse than the Arabs. The west need to stop being apologists for Israel aggression and need to be a little more subjective.

[lidbid46]

No Elgrande, but you know very well that this analogy is not a good one at all. The reasons are far too complex for a debate here, but just a few points. The Jewish people of course had an ancient claim on the land before the settlement began, the Arab landownwers actually sold the land to the settlers as at the time it was worthless scrubland. The main reason they want it returned now is because of the work, including the planting of thousands of trees, which has turned it into quality farmland. The Palestinians have been kept in poverty over the years by their leaders, who are more intent on prolonging the violence with Israel than looking after the welfare of their people. Yes, I agree that Israel has often overdone the violent reaction to being attacked, but when your neighbour's avowed intent is to destroy you, would you just lay down and accept that? I think not. I abhor the violence shown on both sides, and wish it was possible for the more moderate voices from both parties could come together to find a peaceful settlement. Obviously, I think this is unlikely. I just think it is unwise to come down so clearly in support of the Arab nations without thinking about Israel's past and why the leaders are so determined to protect their citizens.

[lidbid46]

Sorry Posh; I didn't really mean you as I know you think carefully about your opinions. But I have heard too much rhetoric on this issue and I have a few friends who I have met over the years who are Israeli and who have suffered so much at the hands of the Arab terrorists, so I admit I am not unbiased on this one. A friend of my sister was blown up in a bus bomb a few years ago and died about three months later. As I said, I condemn all violence, but I know if England was being attacked by rocket from across our borders, I would expect our Government to reply with sufficient force to stop the attacks. I am going to stop my contributions to this now as it is depressing and everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion. I also do not really think this is the place for such a debate as it can't be detailed enough, and I don't want to annoy anyone! Also, I have had a couple of beers in celebration following today's match, and I now intend to have another!!

[Robpthegills]

I am with Lidbid on this one. As usual when people dont want something and they think it is worthless they are glad to get rid of it. The minute they think something has value they want it.

As for the israeli's killing innocent people, sorry I have obviously missed the fact that all palestinian terror has only been on military targets.

The whole area is a mess, and I feel for the people on both sides especially the innocents on both sides who seem to suffer.


Elg as for your analogy it is surely flawed. Using your analogy should we accept terrorism in the Falklands and Gibralter and every other piece of land that is under British rule because it never used to be ours.

This is a deep subject, probably too much for a board and probably more fit for a discussion in person, but I certainly think Israel has the right to defend itself.

[Poshgill]

I don't think anyone is condoning the Palestinians and of course Israel has the right to defend its self, but I cannot stomach the western world and their sycophancy to Israel. They are as bad as each other and there is incontreveritible evidence that shows that many 'attacks' by Hamas are either provoked or are staged for Israeli propaganda. I also disagree that this isn't the forum to discuss these sort of things. It is important that we are all aware of what is happening in the world and if we can educate just one person in what is happening over there, then that is good.

[Rimshot]

It's worth remembering that the Israeli state was only established in 1948 and that was after what was generally referred to at the time as anti-British terrorism ( the Stern gang ).
After all the Jews went through to get their own homeland it is a strange irony that they don't seem to understand the Palestinians' desire for parity. The West Bank settlements are inexcusable. I lived for four years in Golders Green, the vast majority of my friends were Jewish , so my affiliations are more naturally with them. I met a number of young Israelis, many of them in or just out of the army and they impressed me with their bravery and solidarity.
However, a succession of very old, reactionary leaders ( Golda Meir absolutely the worst !) has led the people of Israel down a dangerous path; instead of cultivating the more reasonable of the Arab countries they have simply relied on US support.
Sadly,I can see no solutions.

[gillsfan1066]

Working in the middle east in the day, we had no choice (other then to go back to the UK) to donate a certain amount each a month from our paycheck to the PLO, it was our gift. Saudi and the other rich Arab nations donate millions and millions of pounds to their "brothers" in Palestine, but the truth is they actualy look down on them ,dislike them , don't really regard them as Arabs and only do it as an "empty gesture".
I fear there will be a time in the very near future that we will be thanking the Israelis for destroying the idiots Ahmadinejad and Khamenei and there nuclear arsenal, seeing as the so called Worlds leading powers are unable to do it.

[Elgrande]

Well put Rimshot; that is the bit I can never understand. How the Sabra refuse to allow the Palestinians a homeland when they had one "created" for them. As for the land sales quoted earlier, there was a very interestin programme on TV where the land had been bought from someone who had died twenty+ years before the date of the document. When the US stop turning a blind eye to the West Bank settlements there may be a chance of peace, until then there is little chance!